Protect Your Cash With Hidden 831(b) Protection For Catastrophic Risks - Van Carlson

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Do you ever get the sense that there is more risk out there than ever before? No, I do. So if that's you, then I have a treat for it. In this week's episode of making billions I bring on Van Carlson. Van is an international expert on a corner of the tax code called 831b. Beat. So what this means is that Van helps businesses and funds, reduce the risk, increase their assets, and optimize their taxes all from implementing this one powerful tool in the US tax code. Preparing for unexpected risks, improving tax profiles, and optimizing profit margins are all skills we need in our pursuit of Making Billions.

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• 15:33 (Cont.) Protect Your Cash With Hidden 831(b) Protection For Catastrophic Risks - Van Carlson

Transcript

Ryan Miller  
My name is Ryan Miller and for the past 15 years have helped hundreds of people to raise millions of dollars for their funds and for their startups. If you're serious about raising money, launching your business or taking your life to the next level, this show will give you the answers so that you too can enjoy your pursuit of making billions. Let's get into it. 

Do you ever get the sense that there is more risk out there than ever before? No, I do. So if that's you, then I have a treat for it. In this week's episode of making billions I bring on Van Carlson. Van is an international expert on a corner of the tax code called 831b. So what this means is that Van helps businesses and funds, reduce the risk, increase their assets, and optimize their taxes all from implementing this one powerful tool in the US tax code. Preparing for unexpected risks, improving tax profiles, and optimizing profit margins are all skills we need in our pursuit of making buildings. Here we go. 

Hey, welcome to another episode of making billions. I'm your host, Ryan Miller. And today I have my dear friend van Carlson. Van is the founder and CEO of SRA 831(b) admin, which is a firm that helps businesses to minimize risk through a government incentivized program known as the 831(b) initiative. So what this means is van understands how to minimize a company's risk, while at the same time optimizing their profit margins. So Van, welcome to the show, man. 

Van Carlson  
Yeah, thanks, Ryan. I'm glad I can get on your show. I know you're hopping in running out to a two and a half now. listeners out there in the in the world today. So really impressed to be on your show today. And thank you for giving us the opportunity to get our message out. 

Ryan Miller  
Yeah, you're right. So it's the top two and a half percent, not two and a half listeners. But we do the half. But yeah, top two and a half percent in the world. So we're very honored to be achieving that level of growth within our first year. But we're here to talk about you and how you can minimize company's risks, as well as improving their profit margins you found in impressive program. But I'm curious, and we're gonna get into that in a minute. But I'm curious, like, how did you become an expert? I mean, where did this begin? For you? 

Van Carlson  
Yeah, you know, it's, well, hey, it's risk management, it's insurance. It's really exciting part of anybody's day, especially as a business owner, you know, really, when I got it, I was a pretty successful agent, I would say successful because I was in the top 1%, producer of my, of my insurance industry at the time, and I live in Idaho, we're always growing, we've been growing for the last 20 years, but you know, 2008 comes along. And by then I'd pretty much handed all my hats off, you know, like everybody else, right? Like, hey, I did everything in the beginning hand in my hands on the one hand, I kept was working with my business owners and for say, 2008 came along, and I saw a lot of them go out of business and good people, right? I mean, pillars of the community, looked upon respected. And, you know, they were being their companies were going away, they were being auctioned off, right? I mean, the banks, were asking for their, you know, covenants of the loan started to mean things. And there had to be a smarter, better way. And that's really what I was introduced to the idea. And really, because I was witnessed to a gentleman that had several these 831 B plans, and it really, he was a manufacturer of RVs. For many, many years leading up to that, of course, he felt that pretty hard to innovate. I mean, consumer lending was down. I mean, it was, as we all know, if you were around during that time, in business, it was you did everything to scratch, and save and stick try to stay alive during that time. And I saw this guy thrive. And this is like the business model that, you know, small to middle market, business owners need to be looking at, you know, it's nothing new that we're doing the codes been around since 1986. Back in 1986. You know, that was a part of the largest Reform Act of my lifetime. And it really had it changed a lot, right? It's just rates you going to duck mortgages now, and it's a lot of things went on there. But they introduced this code, because what was happening, traditional insurance companies were non renewing businesses, because they had a really hardening of the market at that time. They were finding it hard to make any kind of returns on their investments. And they didn't like people with claims. And so they're to simply be non renewed. And Congress came out with an incentive basically, that if you're going to have to self insure your risk, you know, how do we make that more more appealing for small to middle market business owners, and it's really the ability to expense $1 out of your company and drop it into an 831 B and here's the deal as long as you meet parameters, rules and guidelines, no different than the 401k is deductible at the operating company level, but the 831 B does the entity itself, the box has a look and feel like an insurance company. It is a C Corp. But inside that, you have to have the ability to do Doing for PARCC tests and all those things. But the nice thing is that premium that goes into the 831 B, it doesn't get picked up as income. You know, the big knock on C corpse is a double taxation, well, when the profits the premium goes into the insurance company or to the 831 B, I should say, your that's not being taxed when these B taxes have estimated income. And, you know, that's it's a quite the incentive, you know, at that time, it was 1.2. Now, it's 2.6 million a year, you can put up into these things. And again, you know, I say that number, there's rules and regulations to it. And that's really what we do for our business owners is administer their plan, no different than why you would want to minister with a 401 K administrator, you know, you can do a lot of things yourself. But I would tell you that you need you need somebody to, if you're going to take advantage of this code, you want to make sure somebody that plays in that area arena is managing that for you. 

Ryan Miller  
Okay, so let me make sure just to summarize and synthesize what you said. So an 831 b, is, it's a government's IP program that allows you to self fund almost your own that will say, self insured program, it's set up, it's obviously registered with the government, I'm sure you have your own criteria that everyone needs to meet, like any government program, you and then you set aside so that you can instantly regret, regret, recognize the expense, you can instantly recognize the expense. And then you can build a nest egg by don't donating or investing 2.6 million a year in this separate C Corp. And then you can use that to mitigate any potential risk. Is that? Is that a fair summary? 

Van Carlson  
It is? It's high level, obviously, there's, you know, I don't want to, you know, there's like everything else that the devils in the details, but that's, again, that's why we're here. I mean, we're very compliant, we make sure our clients follow the rules and regulations of it. But you're absolutely right. It's like having their own PPP program, right? I mean, you know, here's the thing, if you're doing really well as a business, just to take a little bit off the side pocket off to the side. That's just good business, right? A lot of business owners do that. The problem is, is it's all taxable income, though. So you get those k one retained earnings, which is a lovely thing, you got to recognize the taxes on it. With our program, you're able to scrape that out of your, you know, your your LLC, or S corp, C, corpse, whatever, create an expense, and then drop it into an 831 B, and now you're building up a tax deferred basis of money that, you know, at certain times in the life span of a business can be the difference between living and dying. And I think we saw a lot of that. And, you know, unfortunately, through COVID-19, same reason why I got into, I mean, really what happened in 2008 or so, so many businesses go out of business for the simple fact is, they never recognize the financial risks they took, you know, and that's, and now we got this COVID thing hanging around us. And, you know, I'm kind of on the bandwagon right now talking about, okay, what's What's plan B here, folks, I mean, we can't do what we did. Here's a legitimate tax code on the books, you know, if you if you if the service has a problem with it, sort of been the IRS, you know, come out with clear guidelines, and let business owners do their own PPP program next time. So that the fact that we threw this much money out in the economy and everything else, but we did, you know, we're still paying them ramifications for that. And we said, all the future holds for that, unfortunately. And so, to me, it's just good risk management, it's good business. And it's good for the overall survivability of, of the economy, period. 

Ryan Miller  
I love that. And so anybody who's been through a weight, who's been through COVID understands that there is we sometimes on Wall Street, I know there was a book called Black Swan. And there's all of these basically, out of nowhere, once in a lifetime, I feel like every five to eight years, we're having a once in a lifetime surprised down to the downside on the economy. But what you've done essentially is saying, Hey, you're corralling companies in here to say, look, you're you don't have to be this exposed to these unexpected black swan events. You can actually do something today, as they say, Make hay while the sun shining. So while you're making good cash flow, you can reduce your you can recognize these expenses to reduce your taxable income. And while still doing that, you're protecting yourself against these unforeseen events. So again, oh eight, recession, all of these different things. Now, I'm curious, what have you found? How has COVID impacted you said, COVID is been kind of an eye opener for you. Maybe you can walk me through a little bit about how COVID is impacted? 

Van Carlson  
Yeah. So I mean, we started this company in LA, right. I mean, and we've talked to a lot of people and sometimes the business owners haven't had a direct impact where they felt the pain that their insurance policy didn't cover them like they thought it would, which unfortunately happens all the time. You know, we talked to a lot of CPAs we, you know, we built this company up and really going into 2020, when COVID hit, it became a reality, because they realized that a lot of their insurance policies weren't gonna cover any of this stuff. And, and that's really where I would say that the light went on for a lot of the CPA community where, you know, my business, I am putting my business owners at risk, if I don't let Elise let them know this tools available to them. And yeah, there again, you know, this code has been abused, there's, you can Google this thing. And, you know, it was abused for estate tax planning, not what it was designed to do. And that's, I would say, the biggest difference between our competitors and us as we're risk managers, we're not attorneys, we're not CPAs, if your attorney or CPA, you're selling the tax code, which I can appreciate, to some, some some level, Congress created the incentive we didn't. But that being said, the risk management side of it is critical, and that the conversations we have today is so different than we used to, and I think COVID-19 really rocked a lot of people that they saw for the first time, that their insurance policies, you know, they always had it back of their head, but probably not going to be covered for this, or their agents, kind of, hey, don't turn that in, because you're gonna see your rates go up, or you can get non renewed. And so they keep paying the premiums. And it's one of those sticking points that you know, that when I was in my previous lifetime, when I was selling it, right, I mean, I sold an insurance policy think they would be covered. And a lot of times it felt like self telling the client, no, it won't be covered. So again, you know, these are real risk on the books, the best exam, the other addition to that would be the East Palestine thing that just happened recently, with with the derailment of that toxic material. And, you know, we actually had a US senator out of Ohio asked for PPP money for all those business owners that had to shut down during that time that, you know, environmental cleanup was going on. And I'm like, when's this going to end? When are we going to stop? You know, these are visit the tools are there. You know, you know, one of the things we're having a challenge with this Congress is, is really just educating them on this on this code. I mean, you know, it's been on the books for well, going on almost 40 years, I believe now, so. And a lot of them don't know about it. And so part of were tasked with and I, again, blood being on platforms, like yours is just getting the word out on it, that, hey, this is there. If you're a bootstrapper, entrepreneur, and all that kind of stuff. You don't want to be dependent on the government for the next time. You gotta be bailed out. I mean, who wants that? I didn't want that only enemy wanted that. You were forced to because a lot of people didn't know any different. But now that we're here, now that we've gotten through it, there's a better strategy to be deployed. And that's really utilizing a 831 B. 

Ryan Miller  
Yeah, I love it. So now I'm curious. So we've got this company, you've got a corporation, you've got the funds set up, you're financing it? Are there any restrictions to what you can invest in? Like, can you even invest in it? And if so, what what are some of the things you the do's and don'ts? 

Van Carlson  
So, so not to go down too many rabbit holes, right? So getting back to talking about insurance, the insurance company's surplus and reserves reserves typically are premiums being collected in the policy period. And the idea is to use those reserves to pay ongoing claims as they come in. And then at the end of the year, what hopefully, you got more premium than then claims and of course, that becomes underwriting profit, and you're able to call that surplus. And that's really where the insurance industry really has the advantages over probably any other industries is their ability to take those dollars and really put them to work out there. And I would tell you that they're the strongest financial institutions in our in the country in the world, our insurance company, especially life insurance companies, and, and so forth. But so that's what our clients were able to do. They were participate in that kind of a level. And basically, the reserve were good with it being invested in the market stocks, bonds, mutual funds, EFT and all that kind of stuff, that's not an issue, when they becomes a surplus will will allow the loosening up of a little bit, but the clients do sign an investment agreement. Yep. So how they can and cannot treat the reserves and surplus inside their 831 B plan. And any notes it's pretty, pretty neutral. You know, we rely on other trusted advisors to go manage that money for the clients. We don't do that, again, we're the risk managers for the admin people. So we work with a lot of financial advisors all over the country and, and their job, their job is to manage that those reserves and surplus. 

Ryan Miller  
So a question for you. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. So my question for you, and I'm sure a lot of our audience, if you're listening to the show called make billions about private equity, venture capital entrepreneurship, I think a lot of people are doing Can I as a private fund manager and investment banker and entrepreneur, can I approach somebody with that policy and ask them to invest in a private investment? What would you say to that? 

Van Carlson  
Yes, you know, I mean, we'd like some, you know, it's got to be portioned out like everything you're not going to you're not going to put it all on read right? You're not gonna bet it all into one fun, right? But, you know, this one's got to be it's got to be why and again, these are professional people successful business owners that have good trusted advisors. Yeah, hopefully. And, you know, let them run their own ship. But there are some, you know, and we prepare the tax returns every year, this entity has to have a tax return done every year, it's got its own EIN number. Yep, we prepare all that we get all the financial statements, we prepare those documents, we do the balance sheets, the statements, the annual statements and everything else form. So we'll see what they're invested in. And if we start to question some things, you know, it's we always have a one off, we always have, you know, crypto became a big thing here recently, and we kind of just made a company decision not to allow them to vest in crypto, because there was really no way for us to understand how we can exchange it if we in the event of a claim the clients claim or, you know, and all that kind of stuff. So those were things that, you know, it's your insurance, we're an insurance company. So I think by nature, we're going to move slow and some of these investments, yeah. But as you know, but at the same time, I think, you know, it's, it's always open for discussion, I can tell you that. 

Ryan Miller  
Yeah. So I love it. And so, so you mentioned kind of the line is between the principal and surplus, and that is determined what you are and are not allowed to invest. So you can use that money to invest. But depending if you're investing the principal or the surplus will determine what you're allowed. Did I get that? Right? 

Van Carlson  
The reason, the money at risk in any given year? 

Ryan Miller  
I love that. So, okay, and do you have an example? Like, have somebody that's worked for you and how you were able to help them? Or I mean, maybe walk us through a little bit of a real world? 

Van Carlson  
Yeah. You know, there's been a lot of different ways. I mean, I've dealt with strategies for key employees that they've allowed them to own an 831. B, I've dealt with privately ran, you know, family businesses where dad wanted to be bought out there was a strategy used for this kind of vehicles. Well, you know, there's a lot of different ways we look at it with with business owners. And And here's where here's where we're at on that. Again, we're going to work with their trusted advisors. I work with a lot of attorneys, law firms all over the country, a lot of CPA firms, our biggest referral sources are CPAs. Okay, the ones that understand what we do and how we do it. This is a this is a game changer for him. I mean, the idea that you can take a little bit off the top, you know, when COVID hit, we actually responded quicker than the government did on the PPP payment. Yeah, I mean, we had restaurants shutting down, we had dental practices being shut down. We had supply chain issues that were immediately fill clients who were held to contracts that were buying by contracts, and they were, you know, how are they going to fulfill those things? Yeah. And so the fact that they had this bucket of money to turn to you don't make them allow them to make better decisions? Truthfully? 

Ryan Miller  
Yeah, I love it. And, you know, you mentioned there was a few clients that you've worked with, that you have been able to help? Did you have any stories of clients that you'd like to share? 

Van Carlson  
You know, I would see the one and COVID, during COVID. We had, we had a gentleman that was bound. So when we were sat down for what, two months, like a hard shutdown, right. During that time, even around the world, there was plants shutting down, you know, manufacturing plants, but you know, when you sign a contract up to supply a product to a major, big box store, and you don't fulfill that contract, there's there's so many tentacles that they can reach back into you and take everything he had. And so this one particular situation where he had this, this, I would say it's and I'm gonna throw names around, but pretty significant manufacturer of denim, denim jeans, had to get had to get some deliverables. And in order to do that, he literally had to set a putting on a slow boat, a container and put it on a ship, he had air freight it, which incurred a cost of additional $600,000 of expenses that he didn't have wasn't expecting that. And he couldn't go back to the cockpit of the big box store. He had the contract with because the price was set. It's you're done. Right? So here, he was eating it. I mean, it was almost to where he was just, he was happy to break even. But the bottom line is he was able to turn to this this 831 B plan. He had been funding for a number of years. And he and he didn't he didn't lose any sleep, the fact that were words this additional $600,000 of expenses gonna come from that we weren't planning on doing and if he did not fulfill that agreement, that contract he may never get an email he was one and done right? I mean, that's that's the risk you take when you do when you work with big, big companies, right? You got to perform and you know, perform at all costs. And so you have the smoothing of that for him. Whereas I would say that we took the stress level off of him immensely and that's really where we can see if we're Miss Manager right? I mean, it's not exciting industry, right? It's kind of oh god you're no it's really but but I will tell you when you have those incidences, I mean, you feel very, you feel blessed, and what you do, and then how you can truly make a difference for small and middle market business owners, hey, the fortune 500 company has been doing these things for decades. I mean, they get the game, they got a fleet of attorneys, they have a, they have a whole division of risk managers, you know, the guys that are out there, they're strapped it on took an idea and ran with it. And now he turned their company into a profitable business. They've date typical invoicing attorneys, right. They don't want to get a bill from a church. I mean, they're doing it themselves, folks. And again, you know, and I, when I talk to when I present to business owners, everything else, it's like, recognize that recognize the risk, you took what you did, you laid it on the line. Now you're here, now you're over the hump, you've got your profitable business, now's the time to really build this out. And we make it very clear to our business owners early on. The earlier you do this type of a program, the more you put it in a line item expense, you will need to expense these your expense needs no different than work comp, general liability, your commercial auto, it just becomes part of the 162 line item expense, no different than anything else. And as long as you can start to build that into your business into your p&l sheets. You know, it just becomes a line item expense to you. But it's it's one of those things, it's a forced savings account, basically. Yeah, and that's another Mindset for an owner, right? They've got all the world, they've got all the incentive in the world to spend money. What the accelerated depreciation with the r&d credits and everything else, right? This is a program you can still spend the money, but the money's still gonna be yours. And that is a game changer for any business. I mean, there's a reason why Warren Buffett owns reinsurance companies. There's, you know, you want to talk about billionaires so you don't be billionaires own their own insurance companies. Almost all of them do. You know, they have to, yeah, who's gonna sell who's gonna sell those guys insurance truthfully. Now, Elon Musk doesn't have insurance for product defect for his Tesla's he's self insuring that risk himself, right? She's not going to issue a policy to him. So he's on his own. 

Ryan Miller  
Yeah, no, that totally makes perfect sense. So as we round third base and kind of headed home, I'm curious, like, if do you have any like, parting advice, maybe a few tips for people that are this is really resonating to say it because it looked good. And I think you would agree. If when you're in the business, and you're just fully immersed like we are, you just get it. Sometimes you get a fingertip feel. And right now it feels like the risk profile is starting the heat is kind of turning up a little bit on all businesses, there's monetary risks, there's geopolitical risks, there's interest rate risks, there's counterparty risk, there's all of these, and then viruses and fungus and terrorism, I mean, holy smokes, what a world we live in, it's you cannot possibly anticipate and predict all of the rest. But it just it's you see, you're getting a sense here that that the temperature is turning up. So in order to do that to say, look, if the risk profile is going up, maybe we should invest in this thing, I run a fund, I have a startup, I have an established business, whatever it is, this is a good hedge against those unexpected things. So you're not sitting there and analyzing every possible thing. So those people that are maybe also with us, we're feeling like the heat is kind of turning up on all of these elements that I mentioned. And they're like, You know what, maybe I need to do a better job at protecting my cash flow. Because as you mentioned, that other person who went through it, where you come in is that the nightmare scenario, you're saying like this is the moment that we might die as a company, and that an 831b is right there to protect you to help you live another day. So I would assume most business owners would appreciate having something to protect them. Not only an insurance policy, but a deferred tax insurance policy, that like unlike insurance, you actually get this money back should you need it for certain things. So that being said, now that I've rambled on about Risk and Insurance, this is a big part of running a business and making billions. Yeah, so are there any other maybe just one or two different pointers that you find might be helpful to people listening to the sound of your voice? 

Van Carlson  
Yeah, he's had I think you bring up a great point there, Ryan. I mean, this is a work on it business, not an IT business concept. Right. So that you do have to retool a little bit in your brain on what do you mean I got to own my own insurance company. No, it's not that it's a it's an incentive to own your own insurance company and we'll help you manage you through that and there's rules and regulations to it I think any client any anybody out there you know, when I do this I you know, it's especially with business or it's a tool. Yeah. And for the right client, it's a fantastic tool and it may or may not be right for you if the timing and all that stuff. But But I will say that you know, to go to Our Website 831b.com, we've got a lot of educational videos on there. We've got great case studies, we cover all case studies in almost every industry, in Hey, we work, we work with a lot of different types of businesses that aren't normal businesses. You know, that's another fun part of what we do. It's always fun to run into a business and go, you do what, and you make how much money that's good for you, you come up with a great idea. But it's, you know, so those are some unique risk profiles that we get to dive into. And we can kind of geek out on that. And that's what we'd like to do. But you know, what, I can tell you several stories about that. But we were a great case studies for a lot of a lot of different industries. And we're always willing to write more specifically to somebody else's industry. And truthfully, I mean, a lot of our clients out there, unfortunately, have experienced, not a COVID in the financial risk of OAE. But also just other things that have come up over their lifetime or their business where, hey, that wasn't covered. And we've luckily, we had enough cash flow to time to make amends on that, you know, there's a bigger, smarter way of doing that. And I think you were able to us as a business owner, you need you owe it to yourself, you all to the employees you hope that make a living with to look into tools like this, because we don't know when the next to your point, we don't know when the next incident is going to happen. And I entered the OSFI. The 831 b.com website is the best resource we give to our clients to start at. And we would fully expect to work with their CPAs their attorneys, their financial planners, even their own property casualty agent, working with other trusted advisors to bring up the best possible program for them. So in the event of an of a black swan or tournament, they can literally weather the storm. And, and that's really you know, one of the things that we were SRA, 831 b admin aren't our logo is the buffalo. That's our mascot. And what we love about the Buffalo, and I don't know if a lot of people notice or not. But one of the things that's interesting about the buffalo is when they see the storm on the prairie common, they turn into it and run when trend towards it. Yeah. And, you know, Reagan, we are seeing some recession issues, maybe we are seeing some things. And I think you and I are in the same camp here. You know, there's opportunity in volatility, right, there's, you know, if you're, if you're prepared for it. And, you know, again, this to be able to know that you have this bucket of money off to the side that you put away during all those good times. And now Now maybe you can turn into the storm, and run towards the storm and get through it faster on the other end. And when he got through, don't get faster on the other end, you're going to be stronger, faster and better than your competitors by utilizing a program like an 831b. And it's got to become a normal business risk. Because insurance carriers do a good job, for the most part. But the reality is, is the world's gotten so complicated, so global economy, that they're never going to increase the appetite for risk, they're never going to cover things like COVID. And they're never going to cover things that are indirect losses and all those other things that people get frustrated with. And so if you're if you if you have that, then you owe it to your business do to the risk you took to do what you're doing to at least look into an 831 B plan. 

I love that. So thank you. So you know just to synthesises wrap things up. That an 831 B program is a wonderful way to improve your risk. Working with van and his company will include the links in the description of the show, if you want to reach out to then you can reach out there and reach out to the company, but to synthesize preparing for risk working with this helps you in preparing for risk, improving your tax profile and optimizing your profit margin. You do these things and you too will be well on your way in your pursuit of making billions. 

What a show. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Now if you haven't done so already, be sure to leave a comment and review on new ideas and guests you want me to bring on for future episodes. Plus, why don't you head over to YouTube and see extra takes while you get to know our guests even better. And make sure to come back for our next episode where we dive even deeper into the people the process and the perspectives of both investors and founders. Until then, my friends stay hungry, focused on your goals and keep grinding towards your dream of making billions