Dominate Real Estate with $4B AUM: A Private Equity Insider's Strategies Revealed

"RAISE CAPITAL LIKE A LEGEND: https://offer.fundraisecapital.co/free-ebook/" 

Michael Episcope is the Co-founder and Co-CEO of Origin Investments, a real estate investment firm out of Chicago with $1.7B Equity Under Management.  He's been featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur, Huff Post, and more. He’s spent a lifetime building a career in Finance and was ranked as one of the top 100 traders in the world during his stint at the CME.

What this means is that Michael is about to walk us through what he's doing in the private real estate investment space to build his fund and continue to dominate his market; thus helping you in your pursuit of Making Billions.

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[THE GUEST]:  Michael is the Co-founder and Co-CEO of Origin Investments, a real estate investment firm out of Chicago with $1.7B Equity Under Management. 

[THE HOST]: Ryan Miller is an Angel investor

Transcript

Ryan Miller  
My name is Ryan Miller and for the past 15 years have helped hundreds of people to raise millions of dollars for their funds, and for their startups. If you're serious about raising money, launching your business or taking your life to the next level, in the show will give you the answers so that you too can enjoy your pursuit of making billions. Let's get into it. 

When working toward that perfect life changing deal or startup, most people make the same mistake, they forget to communicate their value well. So in this week's episode of making billions I have my dear friend, Michael Episode talk about how he went from being one of the top traders in the world to a real estate magnate with $1.7 billion of equity under management. So the question is, how are you communicating your value to your investors? All this and more coming right now. Here we go. 

Hey, welcome to another episode of making billions. I'm your host, Ryan Miller. And today I have my dear friend, Michael episode, Michael is the co founder and CO CEO of Origin Investments. It's a real estate investment firm out of Chicago with $1.7 billion of equity under management. He's been featured in Forbes, entrepreneur, HuffPost, and more. He spent a lifetime building a career in finance and was ranked as one of the top 100 traders in the world during his stint at the CME. So what this means is Michael is about to walk us through what he's doing in the private real estate investment space on how to build his fund to continue to dominate the market. So Michael, welcome to the show, man.

Michael Episcope  
Ryan, thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here. Huge fan of the show.

Ryan Miller  
It's awesome to have you, you know, we've spoke offline, we've gotten to know each other a little bit, I am so impressed with everything that you've done. We're gonna get into all of those tasty tips and all that cheat codes that you've done. But before we do, how did you even become an expert in this industry?

Michael Episcope  
Yeah, well, I'll take you back, you and I chatted about this a little bit. But if I suppose I'll take you all the way back to to my younger years, and I got first introduced to real estate. And maybe I didn't even know what was happening at the time. But I had a summer job with my grandfather, he bought properties on the west side of Chicago, which if you know, Chicago, the west side is that's kind of the rough areas of Chicago, and kind of taught me the ropes when I was younger, and it was sort of by osmosis, working in those properties, watching him and afforded him a great lifestyle. Well, I eventually, you know, stopped left, went on to college, got a had a career in trading, and did that for many, many years, did great. And I hung that up when I was pretty young, about 35. And the real reason why I hung it up is really two number one, computers were coming into that market. And I just decided I was done. I didn't want to try to compete with computers and put all the infrastructure and my risk profile change to honestly it was, you know, when I entered into that industry, I was single, I didn't have any money to my name, not two pennies to rub together, nickels, whatever you say, and and I stacked up a lot of chips. And I was married when I left, I had two kids and other one on the way. And I said I never want to utter the words, I used to be rich. And when you're dealing with the kind of leverage that you are down there. I mean, I've been through a lot of crazy times long term capital management, the Asian contagion September 11. And any day, you know, as you become a bigger and bigger trader, you start holding these positions that can swing quite quite large. And I knew I was like I'm done, I want to sleep, I want to rest my head, I want to kind of sail off into the sunset. And so what I did is I retooled, I went back got a master's in real estate at DePaul said I want to be you know, an equal at the table. I didn't want to be the guy who didn't know what was going on what people were talking about. And I use that to both kind of gain knowledge but also resource and a network. And I got together with my my partner and I at that time we'd known each other probably five, six years, we were like kindred spirits, we really traded a lot of investment ideas together, we were two ultra high net worth individuals. And ironically, neither of us had done that well in real estate investing with others. And we sort of came to this moment, it was about 2007 and said, Look, this is the best the market has to offer, we can do better, right? Let's take control of our own destiny invest our own capital. And in the beginning origin investments was two guys buying real estate for their own account. That's all it was. And then we invited friends and family. And then we started building infrastructure. And it really grew organically. But the whole idea behind origin was always to protect to grow our wealth to use real estate as that vehicle. And I'm proud to say we're still the largest investors at the company today. And we're still using that I invest in every deal I can if I have liquidity. I love what we're doing. I love the deals, the team is finding and if I didn't work here, this is absolutely where I would invest. And that's always the litmus test we've used when we're designing our funds, our products, buying deals, things like that, I put myself in that seat. And ultimately, it's my money. And more importantly, I would say it's my reputation on the line as well. And so like it's been a great ride, we have a phenomenal team and I love what we've been able to build.

Ryan Miller  
What a phenomenal story, you know, during those early days, so a lot of people that listen to our show, are emerging fund managers, investment bankers, and a lot of people starting out doing exactly what you're doing is saying, You know what, it's time for me to grab the bull by the horns and really take my destiny in my own hands. But in those early days, and you and I've talked about this and I'd love for you to just to maybe open it up just a little bit is in those early days when you're raising money from institutional investors, I mean, did you find any challenges with you know your pedigree? Because you're you're an outsider, you weren't this real estate guy. I mean, you kind of were through your grandpa. But you know, you were an outsider. I mean, did you find that that was a bit of a headwind? And if so, I mean, how did you navigate those those early days of raising capital?

Michael Episcope  
Yeah, good question. And we really didn't break into what I'll call the club out there. And it was at the time, because my partner I didn't come we were both from very similar backgrounds, trading careers, things like that. And we were building a team. And we had a great track record and all that. And as we started, just sort of grow and become a more mature, not even mature, we were still young at that time. But everybody wanted to grow, our team wanted to grow, we wanted to grow. And our team came from institutional backgrounds, and of course, in the institutional world. And this is how almost all companies have grown up, they start with their own capital, friends and family. And then they move to their network, and then ultimately institutional, and we were no different. We're like, Okay, this is how you grow. This is how you do it. And my partner and I, I mean, I can't even tell you how many lunches, dinners meetings, we had banging our head against the wall. And every time we got an offer, it was just so bad that we were like, no, like, we're just employees, then, you know, to work for you. And so we turned down capital along the way. And the inflection point is when we really just said, look, what we like doing is helping people like ourselves, investing our capital. And at that time, I'll take you back kind of 2014 or 15, we had about 90 High Net Worth ultra high net worth family offices that and we had a very tight knit group, and a close following. And we just said, Look, we're gonna stop trying to go after institutional capital, we want to have one voice serve one demographic. And that was it. And the nice thing is, is that at that time, the Jobs Act had already come out. And so the Jobs Act was the law that really overturned some laws from the 1930s, right, the Depression era laws that didn't allow you to market your, your products to investors, right, they didn't allow you to market investment returns, and then all change, but still nobody was doing at that time. And what my partner and I decided to do, we said, look to our team, we said, we're going all in on this, we're we used to be called origin Capital Partners, we changed our name to origin investments, just thought it, you know, worked a little bit better with the investment community about what we did, we rebranded, we hired a digital marketing company, we brought in investor relations team, which is one guy basically who we moved over, we brought in full time marketing, and we started on our writing content, everything journey, and it exploded, it exploded quickly. And the whole idea is if you have a great product, and you've put it in front of a lot of people, you're going to get more customers. And it literally I'll never forget this time, because even with our marketing director at that time, she's like, look, this is how people interact, you write content, they read it, they come they invest me, I'm like, Look, this isn't how people invest in this world, nobody's gonna give you $200,000 Because they read a piece of content. And lo and behold, I'll never forget this. But you know, six months into this, I'm meeting with this couple in our office in Chicago, and I'm How do you mean, you know, find us and oh, I was reading this piece of content and this and that, I was like, Oh, my God. And by the way, that story has happened hundreds of times, hundreds. I mean, it's crazy how much people just read a piece of content, come to your website, like what you're doing. And it's been great for us, because we've always believed in educating the investment community and just making people aware of how to invest better. And that has always been part of our mission as well is elevating the entire investment community on that side. So I'll tell you, so at the end of 14, kind of being being a 15, we had 90 investors by the end of 17, we have 550 investors. So it took us eight years to get to 90, it took us another two years to get to 550. And today, as we sit here, we're approaching 4000. Investors. So it's working. And it's that combination of communication, marketing content, having great product returns, all wrapped up in one and we're continuing even as tough as this market is today. We continue to raise capital, not at the pace as we were two years ago, but certainly at a better pace than our peers.

Ryan Miller  
I love that, you know, you remind me of something, a principle that I continue to teach and kind of a silly analogy. But it's always, in my opinion, and this is what Michael did. And his firm was that he was able to niche down. And what do I mean by that? Well, what happens is, I think it's better to be two inches wide and 100 miles deep than it is to be 100 miles wide and two inches deep. So what we've been able to do is go and he niche down and he was able to find his market and he went all in and it worked in the even in the beginning. Everyone's like yeah, that's how it works. He's like, What are you talking about? No, I was gonna do and it turns out after eight years and went up, and then exponential growth, all because what did he do? He rebranded he focused he niche down. And now these high worth net worth individuals. We're all like, actually, there's something here there's something with origin, there's something that I think is really we're going to be taken care of, I feel it, whatever that might be. But it all started by going in and going 100 miles deep and two inches wide, and having that clear message and all of your content. So hats off to you, brother. That's awesome.

Michael Episcope  
Well, that Ryan that's a great way to describe it. And I guess I've never thought about that. But we've done this in a couple different verticals too. And it wasn't just about the investors but also I A couple years later We were in our early years because it was out of the great recession that we were sort of formed capital had all the leverage. And we were just trying to buy anything and everything because you could buy everything below replacement cost significantly. And we were more opportunistic. But as we move through time, we decided to focus exclusively on multifamily. And that's where we were an inch wide and a mile deep in that vertical. And it has helped us so much focus, focus, focus along the way in everything we do. And it's it sounds great to do a lot of things and it's hard to give things up. But once you specialize, you realize how important it is and how big you can grow as a result,

Ryan Miller  
man, phenomenal story man! So niching down and really capturing your investors and your your target market, whether you're an entrepreneur, fund manager, whoever that is really understand that focus matters not only to you and your firm and your revenue, but also to your clients. Would you agree 100% So what did we do now that we're here today? So that was an amazing origin story. What are we doing now like talk about origin investments, and some of those things that you guys focus on speaking of two inches wide and 100 miles deep, where bring me up to speed,

Michael Episcope  
we're 100% focused on multifamily and but when you think about multifamily by itself, like you know, I say we're focused but even in that vertical, there is so much that we can do because that vertical is you can be in urban you can be in suburban, you can be in podium, you can be in garden, you can be in 1980s, you can be in, you know Class A what we do is class, a multifamily. So we're really focused on a renter by choice. And we have three strategies that we employ. So we build, we do ground up development, we buy, we acquire, we haven't actually acquired anything about three years. That's another story. And then we lend. So the nice thing like when we're thinking about building a company, having these these different strategies, because every market is cyclical real estate especially. And you want to make sure that you have strategies that you can employ depending on where you are in the market cycle. I'll tell you today, we're heavily focused on lending in this environment, we have almost zero focus, we haven't bought a single deal in three years, that could change very quickly. And then our development has gone almost nothing because the numbers just don't work with where the interest rates are in the environment. So but I'll tell you two and a half, three years ago, we were heavy and development, we were still doing lending. We weren't buying for other reasons, but plenty of to do to keep us busy in this environment and generate returns. And that's how we think about it across these strategies. Ultimately, they funnel up into our funds and generate the benefits for investors.

Ryan Miller  
I think you're spot on on the lending, I think we're going to be having a nice run on lending. I know I just read an article Jamie Dimon was was kind of belly aching a little bit about they were asked by the government to shore up some reserves. And he was like, I don't like it, because it wasn't gonna do is gonna push people to private credit. And so there's folks like us, we're like, yeah, come one, come all, give us your application!

Michael Episcope  
I mean, honestly, some of our it's so obvious that the opportunities in lending right now there's a deal I just approved the other day. And think about this multifamily real estate has already come down 15 to 20%. And senior lenders, especially banks, insurance companies, they've completely pulled out and not pulled out, but they're so low in the capital structure that I just approved a deal. We're occupying 45 to 75% in the capital structure with 25% equity above us. And we're getting a 14. I mean, you didn't see anything near that. Two years ago, three years ago, the last time we saw anything close to that was probably 1314 years ago. And there's just no capital in the market right now. So you can really name your terms and capital has leverage once again, which from my standpoint, feels awesome.

Ryan Miller  
As they say money talks, right? So, you know, at origin investments, I mean, we're just scratching the surface, folks. So the firm that Michael and his partners have built is absolutely mind blowing. Now the thing that blows my mind, my man, BB and NBC and all the things I love tech, right? So there's something, whatever you're comfortable talking about, because I know it's a bit of a trade secret. But there's something a little birdie told me, there's some called origin multilit Hicks, can you talk a bit about that, and how that helps you to gain an edge in the market?

Michael Episcope  
Yeah, I'm happy to and you know, Ryan, if I take you back even a little bit further, we have really focus on innovation. It's one of our core values. And we're not afraid to try and fail. And innovation really comes through scratching your own itch doing something, you do want to innovate for the sake of innovating. But if you can't rent it, and you can't buy it, then you have to build it. And years ago, I remember when we, you know, I told you about our inflection point in 2015, where we built a state of the art portal, because at that time, I was so obsessed with these stock portals and looking at it, how you could just pull up your investments and they would all be there and they were beautiful. And so we built this technology that really put us in the forefront. It's a long story about why we ultimately got rid of that, but there were other people in the market. But I think that gave us an enormous advantage. And that was one a point in time. But we've always had this innovative spirit and what we did about three and a half four years ago, it was the same thing. So When you're building financial models, and you know this from being a VC, what are the most important variables is rent growth in our models, right? How fast are your rents going to grow? What cities do you want to be in, where there's going to be the best rent growth and rent growth has, you know, variables to it, but its affordability, its population growth, its job growth. And those are the three variables. But there's, you know, millions of other variables. So we, we hired to University of Chicago data scientists at that time. And we got lucky a little bit because I didn't realize but University Chicago is obviously in our backyard here in Chicago, it is the premier Data Science School for spatial Analytics, which is how this has been built. And what they did is they really, they worked with our acquisition team, our investment management team, because you can't just turn data scientists loose and say build this right, you have to take what you intuitively think and know and feel in the market and give it to them. And then they hypothesize about it they back test, they put variables in it. And I'm, I'm proud of what they've been able to build. And I'll give you one big metric two years ago, we were the first ones to forecast negative rent growth across negative rent growth across the country and 2023 our competitors out there, I'm not going to name names. They just got on it this year. And so we've been and by the way, this is an unbelievably rare moment. And so for us, and by the All this can be corroborated, go to our website, look at our old multilit X, you know, we're not, this is something we used to keep close to the vest. Now we have webinars on it. And it's part of our secret sauce of really identifying which cities have the greatest potential over the next three 5, 10 years. And we got to places like Colorado Springs before everybody else got there, we were buying land for 25 bucks a square foot, we were buying it at 50. We're buying at 75 and went all the way up to 150, 200 square foot. We were in Jacksonville before everybody else buying land cheap getting there ahead of time. I mean, these are cities. Everybody's Oh, yeah, that makes sense. That's obvious. Well, it wasn't at the time. When we went there. When everybody else was going to Miami and Orlando and Tampa, we were going to Jacksonville. And that's it. And then all sudden, everybody's like, Oh, Jacksonville is going you know. So that's the advantage that it gives us. But it's really, I encourage anybody go to our website, you can look at one of these webinars, and our data scientists are just so fun to listen to, because they're so smart. I mean, I look at their math. And you know, when math doesn't have numbers in it, it's pretty impressive. 

Ryan Miller  
Its the Devil's work as we always joked, when I was in grad school is like when, when you introduce Greek letters and symbols here, you've now entered, you've entered hell. So good luck with your homework. So yeah, it's a it takes a pretty iron mind to be able to manage that these guys some brilliant

Michael Episcope  
They absolutely are in this machine, it's machine learning. And it looks at more than 3 billion pieces of data per month pulls it from every source, you can possibly imagine. And it does things that a human couldn't possibly do. And it's just created a lot of value for us and our investors. And we've obviously incorporated into our strategies and force ranking the different markets and gives our team clarity on where they should be looking. And honestly, where they shouldn't be looking as well.

Ryan Miller  
And I love it. So the power of tech and creative destruction is sometimes we like to say is, everybody should be disrupting you before, as we would say, you know, back in a former life here, but there's always going to be some kid in his mom's garage is invent tinkering and inventing stuff that could could knock you out. And so continuous improvement organization that Michael has built at origin investments, this is key, and I hope you're picking up because I don't want to gloss over it and just say, Wow, he's got a cool tech know what he's telling you is Yes, he has a cool tech. And you should also disrupt yourself and look forward. That's what effective leaders of effective organizations do. Now, that being said, AI, you had to build these things, and you implement something called a Buy Box. I'm wondering if you could maybe share, like maybe two or three ideas, maybe starting with your buy box on? What is it that you look for if I gave you a stack of deals, put them on your desk? What are some of those criteria that you're like, it just screams that this is a good deal? We need to do this deal? What do you like to see?

Michael Episcope  
Yeah, let me I'll kind of think about this from the viewer point of view, because a lot of people are getting deals sent to them that are already you know, from sponsor. So for us, it has to be about the location, it has to be about the quality of the property, the business plan, etc. But I would say that when you get a deal sent to you, most people start with returns and you know, deal has to generate a good return. And that's okay, that's a fine place to start. But the question is always, how much risk are you taking to generate each unit of return? Because not all returns are created equally. And we all know that performance are wrong. And we've seen, you know, if you've been investing long enough, you've invested in deals that look amazing on paper, they look great, and they go belly up, right? And what happened to those and what could you've done on the front end? And I would say there's probably six or seven criteria. And when I say that, you know you look at these things and you're sort of going in somewhat sequential order and one doesn't check out the deal gets thrown out and and the first thing is the business plan when you're looking at a deal it's got to be realistic, you have to use what I'll call that gut check and look at the deal and say, Does this make sense? Is this consistent with the sponsor? What they've done in the past and what they've achieved in the past? And, you know, a lot of times we do joint venture with other groups as well. And that's the first thing we'll look at is what is their experience here? What is the reputation in the market, we kill deals all the time. And, you know, generally our team is good that they don't, they're doing this due diligence on the front end. And the first thing we will talk about is sponsor sponsor sponsor. And then what's the business plan? The other things these are like metrics that are easy to pull out, we look at what's the underwriting look like? What is what cap rate are they using for the going in cap rate, but also the terminal cap rate, because a cap rate for I mean, is essentially a valuation metric. And what I'll say it's sort of a, a BS component as well. And you can tell if people are underwriting conservatively, or aggressive, and if today's market is a 5% cap rate, and somebody is using a four and a half, or four and three quarter, or even five, that, you know, you'll look at that a little skeptical. The the really important part is what are they using on their exit cap rate. And if they're using five or four, three, quarter, four and a half in the future, they're assuming cap rates are going down will look, every deal will work if cap rates go down. And that's not how you protect your capital. And so that's kind of the first line of defense is what I look at. The other one is how much are they growing revenue? How much are they assuming that revenue is going to grow from both the business plan and the market rate revenue? And can you corroborate that? You know, does it look like they're trying to grow $3 million in top line revenue to $5 million over four years, that's, that's a lot, right. But if they're growing it by, you know, 30% 35%, that's something that's probably realistic. So look at the revenue growth rate. And then the other thing, the big thing is, I see this all the time, I throw deals out there in two minutes, if you're looking at your returns, and then you're looking at them relative to the leverage because there's the financial leverage, right, you have the property operating metrics without leverage, and then you layer on leverage. And leverage really should enhance returns. So if you have a deal, like in real estate, it's typical in a ground up development, or heavy value add, you're going to try to generate around a 2x return over five years, well, if a sponsor is using two to one debt to equity, meaning using about 65% debt and 35% equity, and they're achieving those returns, that's realistic, that's fine. But if suddenly you look on there, and they've got preferred equity, or mezzanine debt, and they're going up to 80%, and they're generating a 2x return, that's not good, I just throw that deal out immediately. Because what it tells me is that they're using too much leverage, ultimately, for the net returns that are coming back to me. So the fees, there are probably pretty egregious. And I'll be candid here, but you as an investor, and this is why I got into the business, you're taking all the downside risk, and you should be getting the majority of the upside risk in these deals as well. And so leverage to me just that one component tells a big story about that, going back to the property, comparable properties, looking at those, what are those trading for sales on the rent side, you know, I've already sort of talked about this, but I would say I don't know, if this is six or seven fees, you have to look at those as well. And fees. To me, there's like a range and in real estate tends to be, you got about a one and a half percent asset management fee annually, you might have a small acquisition fee, and then you have a performance fee that can be anywhere between 10 to 20%. And that's sort of the range, right? And you want the manager to make money if the deal works, but you don't want it to be heads, they win tails, you lose in this asymmetric downside, where you're holding the bag if things go wrong, and they're getting all the upside, if things go right, and I actually I had a good friend of mine call me got it was probably about four months ago, and he sent me this deal. And that's exactly what it was, is that the LPS were putting in 80% of the capital, but the GP was keeping 80% of the profits. I didn't I don't care how good the real estate is. And I was trying to be nice, you know, it was it was almost offensive, looking at what they were doing in this deal. And so, you know, those are the things that I would look for and how I would sift through deals you know, really really quickly but again, if you find one of those things that it's like a red flag you can you don't have to go through all seven just boom, throw it out. There's always another bus to come by.

Ryan Miller  
Yeah, as I as I like to say the deal of a lifetime comes by about every three months but we'll we'll see. So it's like the throw it out man it's fine like you you know it's you want it to be a winner but it's not quite there cool. Don't lie to yourself, man. It's you could regret it. So do what he does just be very disciplined in your approach to find your Buy Box learn how to tell your investors that story. But also speaking of a story or maybe your your firm and you decided very early on as you injected that DNA into origin investments, because that we were very big on marketing and communications. I'm wondering if you could just walk some of these emerging fund managers, entrepreneurs. I mean, we're all in it. Man. We all have investors, Marketing and Communications is great way to grow, but it's also a great way to solidify your business. Maybe you can walk us through just Some of the insights that you've had as building a firm that is focused on marketing and communications, yeah. And

Michael Episcope  
Ryan, I adopted this because I am and I have been an investor for so I've seen firsthand what companies do really well and what they do poorly. And I would say at origin, we're obsessed with two things. Every investment firm has to be obsessed with returns, right? Some investment firms, we are obsessed with communication. And I learned a long time ago, you have to communicate early and often to people you walk out good news, and you run out bad news. And that's just what people want. And us as individuals, and everybody listening to this, you just want the news. As it comes, you don't want to sugarcoat it, you don't want it late, you don't want somebody, Hey, we're trying to solve this problem. So we didn't tell you about this for nine months. But here it got a lot worse at the time. Why don't you tell me six months ago, and that's something that we have really internalized and talk to our team about, it's something we hold dearly, is just getting out there early. And often. Because what we're all trying to do is build trust, and you build trust over long periods of time. And you do that with communication. And I'll tell you this, that people will accept a lower level of return if you communicate to them about how you are making it and how you are doing and how they're doing because they will sleep well. And I hear it all the time from our investors. You guys are fantastic. I love the webinars. I love the personal connection with you. I love the fact that you guys go on and answer investor questions. Now, if you can hit on both of those, I mean, the sky's the limit, then in situations like that, but I can't overestimate like every fund manager there out there should be obsessed with communications, what I mean by that too, there is check the box stuff out there, oh, well send out quarterly reports. Great, you look like the other 500 managers that they're with, and you're not standing out. And when they have another liquidity event and they have more money to put in, guess who they're going to put it with. They're going to put it with the guy who they feel like they have a relationship with who's been talking to them who's been communicating, who understands risk, reward everything about who's been educating, providing them with value. And that's how you truly differentiate as an investment firm and build loyalty

Ryan Miller  
man brilliantly said, so, you know, I did ask for for three things. So I'll give you a maybe one as everybody always comments about the color coded books behind me. So I'm an avid reader and, and someone taught me many years ago when I was a young man just getting interested is earners are learners. So I'm curious, what is maybe one book that you would recommend all of these philosophies, man, we just scratched the surface of your wisdom. I mean, I am just over the moon that we're talking. And I'm curious from your perspective, and all of the books and everything that you've learned, is there a book that you could recommend? And maybe walk us through why you recommend it? 

Michael Episcope  
Yeah, there's a book I read recently, there's a lot of books over the years, and the one I read recently really stood out, it is called the psychology of money. And it is an easy read every chapter is four to six pages, and we no matter what business, you're in your adventure, I'm in real estate, somebody else could be in private equity, or, you know, investing in deals, it all comes down to human behavior, and how people behave. And that's the commonality that you have for everything. And this book touched on so many examples. And I think if you're in the investing world, or whatever world you're in, you always have to be curious and a student of the game and learn from other people's mistakes, because trust me, other people have made the mistakes out there. But what I loved about this book, it was all about the greed and fear and what motivates people. And it was these anecdotal stories. One of them was about Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger and Charlie Munger was quoted in the book, people probably don't know this, but they had a third partner. And he said, Look, Warren, and I always knew we were going to be wealthy, and we had a third partner, and he just wanted to be wealthy a lot faster. And so he leveraged he actually put his Berkshire shares on margin in the 1970s, and lost them all. And Charlie and Warren bought them for pennies on the dollar. And, you know, they also highlight janitors who died with 20 $30 million, and Harvard MBAs who worked at I mean, some of the biggest names who are in prison today, and just all of these great stories about what people did right what they did wrong, and it comes down to you know, people, human human behavior. And I think that book was really well written and it just takes lessons from so many other stories out there as well. So it's good book easy read,

Ryan Miller  
I love it I'll have to pick it up. So as as the saying goes, people work is greater than paperwork. So to Michael's breakdown of that it's all about people's if you follow the show, you certainly know that we follow that philosophy the in my opinion, my experience, the key to success really flows through the quality of your reputation and your relationships. And Michael, my man, you've got both so before we wrap things up, is there anything else you would like our fans around the world to know anyway? How to contact you websites, anything at all?

Michael Episcope  
Yeah, head to our website, origin investments.com We make it super easy to interact with us. You can download our decks you can set up a call with somebody from our Investor Relations. And honestly, you can reach out to me Michael at origin investments.com If I can't help you, I will send you to somebody who can and just let me know that you came in through this making billions podcasts and be happy to help you.

Ryan Miller  
Awesome. I love that. Well, you know, just just to summarize everything. Learn how to define your Buy Box, learn your Buy Box, learn how to communicate that Buy Box, and through communication. The other thing that we talked about, that's a great way to build that relationship with your investors. Right? What is we say when we walk out good news and we run bad news out and then just be a good reader. Listen to people who are in the position that you want to be in if that's my goal, if that's me, look, we got an endless supply of books will definitely give you our your homework, but the psychology of money, whatever it is, these people do someone with one point, I think 1.7 billion equity under management. I mean, anybody that has that says, Read this book, you probably should read that book. That's all I'm gonna say. You do these things, and you too, will be well on your way in your pursuit of making billions.

Wow, what a show. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Now, if you haven't done so already, be sure to leave a comment and review on new ideas and guests you want me to bring on for future episodes. Plus, why don't you head over to YouTube and see extra takes while you get to know our guests even better. And make sure to come back for our next episode where we dive even deeper into the people the process and the perspectives of both investors and founders. Until then, my friends stay hungry. Focus on your goals and keep grinding towards your dream of making billions