Billionaire Black Book: Tax Reduction Strategies

Hey, welcome to another episode of Making Billions, I'm your host, Ryan Miller and today I have my dear friend Nate Bradshaw.

Nate is the co founder and Chief Operating Officer at B10 Energy. Nate is an expert in energy tax savings for private equity funds and family offices with over $20 billion in AUM.

Now I know what some of you are thinking, taxes are just a line item on my income statement why should I even care this much about it? Well, you should care because Nate and his team at B10 Energy are bringing tax savings to investors through energy tax credits so that they too can enjoy their pursuit of Making Billions.

Learn more: https://www.b10energy.com/

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• 22:16 (Cont.) Billionaire Black Book: Tax Reduction Strategies

Transcript

Ryan Miller  

My name is Ryan Miller, and for the past 15 years, I've helped hundreds of people to raise millions of dollars for their funds and for their startups. If you're serious about raising money, launching your business or taking your life to the next level, this show will give you the answers so that you too can enjoy your pursuit of Making Billions. Let's get into it. 

Ryan Miller  

As an investor, it is your job to make a profit, often we look to the upside to get it done but what about strategies to bring efficiency in the biggest cost of them all? That's right, we're talking about a program that is estimated to save hundreds of billions of dollars for investors like you, so that you too can enjoy your pursuit of Making Billions. Here we go. 

Ryan Miller  

Hey, welcome to another episode of Making Billions, I'm your host, Ryan Miller and today I have my dear friend Nate Bradshaw. Nate is the co-founder and Chief Operating Officer at B10 Energy. Nate is an expert in energy tax savings for private equity funds and family offices with over $20 billion in AUM. Now I know what some of you are thinking, taxes are just a line item on my income statement why should I even care this much about it? Well, you should care because Nate and his team at B10 Energy are bringing tax savings to investors through energy tax credits so that they too can enjoy their pursuit of Making Billions. So Nate, welcome to the show, man.

Nate Bradshaw  

Ryan, such a pleasure to be here, thank you so much for having me, I'm a big, longtime fan of the show. You know, it kind of surreal, honestly, to be counted among some of your other guests. I think you had like Andy Lee on recently, RJ Burr, these are, you know, legends, man. I mean, you've got great, great guests, and I'm just so grateful to be part of it, thank you. 

Ryan Miller  

Yeah, you're certainly numbered among them. We've been very fortunate to be in the top 3% in the world, and it's all because amazing guests like you and yes, Andy Lee and RJ Burr are phenomenal, they understand energy, they understand taxes. And we're going to chop it up to show investors those you want to keep listening all the way to the end, because we're going to talk about how to actually save money, not only in maybe capital gains, but residual income. There's a lot of things that we're going to get into, so let's jump right into it, Nate, let's hit them between the eyes. How do investors win and not lose? Maybe we can get into some of that from your perspective, tell me how this energy tax credit thing, what is it and how do people save money?

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, no. I mean, Ryan, amazing. Thank you so much. Love to so energy tax credits are not anything new. These been around since largely the 90s, and for those of your listeners that maybe are like a credit. What are we talking about here? So the best way to think about a tax credit is it's like an IRS gift card, right? So it's $1 for dollar, elimination of your tax bill. A deduction is what happens, you know, larger upstream, right? So you have, you know, income, you have expenses that gets to your net income, and that's how you calculate your tax, right? So deduction is going to be one of those expenses that lowers your tax bill, versus, like a credit, that's an elimination of your tax if you owe $10,000 and you have a $10,000 tax credit, you owe $0 in tax right? So credits are super powerful, incredible and renewable energy tax credits, basically credits the government issues for investments into renewable energy projects. Not anything new. But today I will tell your audience a little bit more about what has happened over the last couple of years, where a lot of these credits have now become transferable, meaning you can buy and sell them, and how powerful that is for them.

Ryan Miller  

Brilliant. You and I have gotten to know each other, we've known each other for a while now and you explain something that's very interesting about how people win on two fronts, so on investing and on tax wins. So talk about how people win on the investment front and on the tax front? 

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So when these So, these credits that I brought up when they became transferable a few years ago, it really opened up the doors for investment opportunities into this renewable space, because prior to these credits becoming transferable, and this happened specifically during in 2022 with the pat, the passing of the Inflation Reduction Act, that's specifically when these credits became transferable. Prior to that, if you wanted to make an investment into renewable energy projects, some kind of, you know, hydrogen, solar, something of that nature, you had to really be a pretty specific type of investor, because in order to get the the returns to really pencil for you, you needed to be able to absorb all of the tax benefits out of those projects and then have that be part of the calculation into the types of net returns that you're looking at for the project. So sometimes these projects are kicking off $80 million in tax benefits. For example, well, there's not well, there's not a lot you know, of people that can absorb $80 million of tax benefit. They don't have that kind of liability and so it just was very, very narrowing of where these investment opportunities became available. With the transferability, it's blown the doors open, basically, now you can have interest either in the economics relative to the credits themselves, or you can come and invest in these projects knowing that those credits can be sold off, bringing in new capital into these projects, and it makes them pencil completely different. And we're seeing in the market, I mean, you know already, you know, something like 50, $60 billion over the last couple of years. New capital infused into really that sector, and largely it's just because the economics are completely different now than they were even two years ago.

Ryan Miller  

Man, that's incredible. So a lot of these things, and I'm a big fan of that, of just making sense of regulation and doing it intelligent, and providing tax incentives to have other people explore it. So I remember many years ago, when I was deep into the energy, traditional energy sector, and they had accelerated depreciation, and so the government came out and said, sure, if you want to drill new wells, we'll help you to get your capital back, capex and all of those exciting things that you get to do, we'll help you to do it. So these are similar, but now, instead of traditional energy sources, which I'm, I'm also a big fan of I'm a fan of all energy, but now we're into renewables, and there's tons of exciting technology that's coming out. But what has to drive technology, and especially on this show, we know it is, we need investors to do that, and they need incentives to enter a new sector that may be fairly new and they don't understand, but it does make sense from a dollars and cents standpoint. So from the investment wind we can do but what about the tax win? Like, let's unpack the taxes. Talk about how these renewable tax credits help save a lot of capital for investors, and unpack that part.

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, no, amazing. Thank you so much for that and you know, quickly to your point, yeah, I'm an investor in typical energy as well. So I'm an oil and gas investor. In addition to being renewables. I think you and I both agree that, you know, just energy, investments into energy, right is, is something that's huge, that that are big opportunities for that right now, but also the government's incentivizing that really heavily, and I think that that's specifically where we now get in, kind of on the tax side, the transferability these credits has really opened up for passive income. And you know, those high net worth individuals with a lot of passive income, those who want to make investments that are in that bucket, or C corporations. So, you know, corporations that that again, you know, the nice thing about C Corp is that the way income kind of flows into it, it doesn't, it does designate passive and active, but largely it kind of gets thrown together in the wash. So really, these passive income renewable energy tax credits. They can offset either C Corp income or passive income for high net worth individuals, family offices, other investors. But now, with the transferability, you can buy these credits from those that have them, rather than having to be invested in a project. Specifically, you can just have interest in the tax credits. So you can just be someone that is earning a lot of income, has a large tax liability, and you can go out in the open market, and you can buy these things for maybe 90 cents, 91 cents, and offset $1 of tax. So you can take your, you know, million dollar tax bill, and you can pay $900,000 for enough credits to eliminate your million, million dollar tax bill, right? So in that scenario, you get to net and keep an extra $100,000 you otherwise would have paid in tax. But now you don't have to, just for fun, just because you went and got some credits from somebody that could sell them to you, and they're gonna use those dollars now in their projects. They're gonna make investments into that space. That's incredible, but you get a 10% discount on your taxes, like, that's awesome. You're paying for your taxes with these gift cards, and you're getting to buy you're getting to buy these gift cards with at a discount. 

Ryan Miller  

Yeah, I love the gift card analogy. So these renewable energy tax credits, these RETCs that are composed of investment tax credits as well as producer tax credits. Can you maybe draw the line between those two? 

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, investment and then the production tax credits on their side. So really, you you're going to often hear, you know, when you're talking about RETCs, you're going to hear ITC, so that's those investment tax credits, and then production tax credits, so PTCs. Investment tax credits, ITCs, those are, well, and really, when you're investing into a new renewable energy, you know, project, and these credits are part of that package you can designate and sort of pick, right? Am I going to take the ITCs out of this project, or am I going to take the PTCs you can you have to take one or the other, you can't take both in most instances. But, you know, so the ITCs that's going to be where you're getting a certain amount of tax credits back up front, relative to the investment that was made into that project, that's why they're called investment tax credits. So you know, if I, if I, you know if it cost a million dollars to get into a project and it's in a certain geographic zone and you meet other certain requirements, then maybe 40% of the cost of that project, that million dollars would be issued in tax credits. So 400,000 tax credits that you can sell now, right? You can sell those off for, you know, 350 grand, and that's now cash you otherwise wouldn't have had before. But you get to have in your project, either buy down debt, make new investments into that project, make that, make it really, make the numbers pencil for your investors. PTCS, they're going to be a certain amount of credits that are issued against the production of that project over time. So you know, if it's kicking off, you know, one megawatt a year, two megawatts a year, five megawatts a year, whatever it is, there's a certain amount of credits relative to the energy production from that project and those will come every single year that that project is producing. You get those PTCS. So you know how investors choose, or how project developers choose. You know, are we going to do the ITCs or the PTCS. It often is a strategic decision on their side, but, you know, based on what their incentives are, you know, at any given time, and their objectives in the project. But you you know, but you know, hang out with individuals got a lot of passive income either way you buy PTC or an ITC, it offsets income, and that's and that's a win. So you're looking at these things from the tax perspective, you're winning. Whether you're buying ITCs, PTCS, doesn't matter. You get those. You get them at a good price. You're winning. And if you are an investor, you know whether you're taking the ITC, the ITCs or the PTCS, you know you're invested in a project, as long as you can have an off, take and sell those things off, that's going to provide cash for you into your project, and it's going to make the numbers pencil a lot better.

Ryan Miller 

Awesome. So I'm sure at this point a lot of people, whether your family office or somebody or your high net worth listening to the show, you're probably wondering, Where do I get those? Now we're going to get into that in a minute. Nate, I'm going to ask you, where do people actually acquire these to get those tax savings? I'm assuming calling you is probably one of the answers, but so you want to hang in there to the end, we're actually going to tell you, actually how to do this, how to get it, how to save money, how to actually fold this in and acquire these tax credits to help reduce your tax bill, legally, ethically and more importantly, most efficiently, right? So if we're all running businesses, we all have a whether you call it income statement, PNL, we have a responsibility to be responsible stewards of capital, whether it's our own or other people's, and so managing tax and tax efficiency is certainly part of that. So I love having you here. I really do. So let's, let's talk about, let's transition a little bit now that we've introduced ITC and PTCS and all these tax credits, let's transition into the market. What are you seeing out there, and maybe walk us through where it's going after that.

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, no, I'd love to a couple years ago, again, 2022 with the Inflation Reduction Act, there were some early estimates that the government has sort of government has sort of put out there about what you know, when you're issuing credits, as the government, you don't have to budget for them, actually, which is kind of interesting. It's another discussion. But the whole point is, you don't really have to go to the CBO, the Congressional Budget Office. They provide some feedback to, you know, congress, or to others about like, how many credits they think are going to be issued, and what they think it's going to do the economy, that type of thing. So you know, when these credits became transferable, 2022 the initial estimates were that they fell over the next 10 years, that they might be issuing somewhere around 300 billion credits. Now that's a lot of credits, and that's a lot of dollars flowing in to the renewable space, and we'll get into this later, but you are, you're seeing a lot of funds and others that are moving investment dollars because these incentives are juicy, and people are loving that. But, but recently, you know, after a couple seasons seeing how much investment has already been coming into the space, they recently updated those investments, and now talk is that it's going to be closer to about a trillion dollars of credits that they expect to issue over the next decade, and that is just based on the amount of capital that they're seeing already in flow into the into the space, relative to these credits becoming transferable. But, but they're also seeing again, like the type of speed and growth with which these projects are getting stood up, and the benefits that they're having around the country as well. You're seeing that in a lot of southern belt states. We'll get into that, but, yeah, I mean, it's, it is making the transformational effect, both from an energy infrastructure standpoint, as well as, you know, whatever your incentives are from that, and what you think of the prior, the priority is there seeing more energy, you know, infrastructure being built at that, and at a rapid speed. It's, it's being, you know, it's been incredible, so.

Ryan Miller  

Yeah, I love that. So they originally thought 300 but now they're looking like it's going to scale to a trillion dollars in what we're calling gift cards, IRS, gift cards, or whatever you want to call it. I mean, it's more of a saying, a really cool thing in a funny way but there is a program. The point is, there's a program to help offset some of the returns that you've got. Congratulations, you got returns now we need to properly address the tax burden on top of that. Now, I know contacting you and all that stuff at B10 Energy, that's a great way that a lot of family offices, and you've helped to the tune of plenty of billions of dollars of family offices under management. But is there a resource out there that other people can learn or maybe a marketplace that you can speak of? 

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, absolutely and there's a lot of great resources that are out there. I mean, one of my favorites personally as well. So Crux is another business that's out there. They've actually opened up, specifically to your point, a marketplace where those with projects can bring their projects, bring the tax credits from those projects onto the marketplace from the supply standpoint and those that have tax liability, so on the demand side. You know that's an excellent place like your listeners could go today, cruxclimate.com, go to Crux, make an account. You can sign up there. You can start looking for projects and looking for tax credits, getting an idea of how much they're willing to sell them for. Where are they being generated? Where are they coming from? And, you know, start to look at opportunities to offset tax liabilities by leveraging a marketplace like that. We get hit up quite a bit by a bunch of other technology companies and those looking to get in the space. So I, you know, I've got a I've got a fair amount of evidence that there are more marketplaces that are planned and looking to to expand and to start. So I would imagine that over the coming years, there's going to be, you know, a lot of really, really great options, but, but the one, again, that I like the best today, you know, we do. Full Disclosure. I mean, you know, we've got, we've got an account with them as well, and love working with them. But, yeah, Crux Climate, Crux, I think fantastic business. So you definitely have your listeners. Check that out. 

Ryan Miller  

Yeah, I love that. So Crux, c, r, u, x, climate.com, correct? 

Nate Bradshaw  

That's right.

Ryan Miller  

That's awesome. So, you know, I also mentioned that I'm curious, and just just in your opinion, not financial advice, but in your opinion, where do you see this market going in the future? Where, where does the horizon lead your mind?

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, no, it's a, it's a good question, and, and part of it is because it's, it's definitely come up with it being an election year, and this being something that's driven by government, government incentives, government programs. So definitely, there's some chatter about that. And you have, you know, you do have President Trump, who vocally has said that he's opposed to the Inflation Reduction Act and would like to see it repealed, and things of that nature. So, you know, definitely raises a lot of these questions. But I think, you know, those that are, they're really kind of in the space, have been working in the space, the amount of activity we're seeing in the space, and the money that's flowing in the space, and those are that are growing. I think everyone's a pretty similar opinion that that they don't see anything really changing here for at least another 10 years. And I think a lot of that is driven by, you know, it doesn't really matter what side of the aisle that you're on, whether you're blue, whether you're red, you know, how are you going to vote the blue side of the aisle? Voted this into law, and obviously, big fans of it from for their own reasons. You also now have the red side of the aisle that, even though President Trump's been pretty vocal about that, lots of articles, I mean, Bloomberg Laws had a bunch of great articles recently about House Republicans. You know, congress, the the legislative branch, really being pretty vocal about how. You know, on the red side, these, these, these red Republicans not interested in seeing that thing repealed. Not too surprising, many of these guys that are benefiting are the senators and legislators in southern belt states that are seeing a lot of the investment dollars flow in there. You know, Texas, Oklahoma, you know, others of that nature and so, you know, I just, I don't think you're going to see the votes for repeal on the red side, the blue side has no interest in repeal. And I think across the board, everyone's sort of seeing this is having a positive effect that we want in the market, regardless of your politics, enter, you know, the United States and all global countries, I think, as technology advances and continues to advance at a pretty rapid rate with, you know, things like AI, you know, digital assets, other things of that nature, computing power is a big deal as we move forward and computing power requires energy. Requires electricity, it just does. Our needs on an energy standpoint, are continuing to grow all the time. So my opinion, and I think the opinion of everybody, we need more oil and gas, we need more nuclear, we need more renewables. We need more everything. Like, you know, we need hydrogen, we need solar, we need it all, and we need a lot more of it, and so any investments going into that space is good idea. And I just think that, yeah, you're not going to see any changes in and in the and the changes you are going to see, I think, are going to be positive changes for taxpayers and investors, because they're seeing that these programs are working, moving dollars into a sector that desperately needs these dollars.

Ryan Miller  

That's right and I would hope, and I would assume, that whoever takes office, I don't really lean one way or the other, like I'm not even American, but definitely, all of us are influenced by what goes on there. So I would say, you know, hopefully on economic advisory and all those things, that they're going to look at the data, at whatever it is they're saying, I don't love it, hopefully someone's going to say, but if it's working, and it's actually moving the country in the direction, in a positive direction, hopefully they still keep it. And it sounds like this is a wildly popular one, not just because you're reducing your tax bill, but it's also encouraging energy development which you mentioned the candidate, President Trump, or former President Trump, sounds like he does like energy, traditional energy, but I think he's pro on that side. But I, it's not that the other side isn't either, let's be honest, they actually created this bill. So both sides over all, I think, agree that we need more energy and I think really the discussion is, how do we get that going? How do we get investment dollars in the country? And this is working, so not only do we get more energy development, but all investors, we now have marketplaces, there's investors directly investing in these projects, indirectly saving from these projects. So the investors are happy with energy development. That I would think is the overall objective, because once you got investors, once you got investors loving a sector, you're going to get more of them, and once you got more investment, you got more development and great, we're off to the races.

Nate Bradshaw  

Well, and I really love that you know and love Canada, love you know our neighbors to the north. You know brothers and sisters up there. So you know, you know nothing but love and I love that you brought that up, because you know what has really been something that I think has been a really positive benefit of making some of these changes happen, is it has allowed foreign investment to be able to come in to America's infrastructure, make investments here, have it pencil for them with that, because they that is, that is the that's the sector of the market that cannot use a federal tax benefit, right? Like you're a foreign investor, US tax benefits unless you've got four, you know, investment interests here. You know you have, you know you have business in. Here, like those aren't helping you, right? And so, but having these foreign dollars be able to come in purely because the economics on a project are different now benefit that way, and then move the tax benefits to those internally within the United States that can use that, right? It's just a huge one for everybody and I think that this is a, this is a global, you know, issue, just energy in general, is something we need more investment in, and now everyone can complain this field benefit and and see the world become better as a result, so. 

Ryan Miller  

Yeah, then spoken like a true impact investor like me, so I love it. Yeah, and foreign direct invest was a wonderful way that can obviously help to reduce trade deficit and it really, it really is quite positive. So I know through finance and exporting services as fund managers is a great thing that US likes a lot of programs. We did a whole show on that too, but we won't go into that now, but FDI is a wonderful way to also raise capital, as long as, like you said, the economics are there. Moving just rounded third base here, we've talked a lot about energy and markets and tax credits and the marketplace for where investors can acquire some tax savings and get your, uh, proverbial gift card. But really in this game, and this is my favorite segment of the show, is providing our listeners with an unfair advantage. So we bring professionals like yourself on the show, and we say, look, you've been you've been in the game for a while. Help people who are just hearing this and was like, what are, what is this great stuff that I'm listening to help them cut through the noise, get right to the signal and provide a competitive advantage. What would you teach them?

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, I love that, and that's one of the things I love about your show and your community, right? I just think you got an incredible community here, Ryan and and I just love that you're focused on delivering value. So I definitely want to be a part of that, grateful for this. So, you know, we talked, you know, if you're, if you are an investor, you know you're, you're a domestic, you know, United States investor, and you have large passive income liabilities. You know, from, from some of your other investments, real estate, other things of that nature, then you know you're, again, you could be an excellent candidate for, for these, credits, being able to eliminate that income, or, if you're, you know, again, CEO or Executive at C Corp, same sort of thing. So this could be really great for you. We've talked about, you know, Crux Climate. It's a wonderful marketplace. Again, I highly recommend everyone go create an account on there and go take a look and just see some of these projects. You will, you will see a lot of projects on there, and you're going to see bids. I mean, you know, they'll cross the board, but you're going to see bids somewhere, maybe between 91 to 95 cents per credit. I think that over time, you're going to see those numbers start to come down as supply and demand economics sort of really get to play out a little bit. But if I was one of your investors right now, and I was, or, you know, one of your listeners right now, Ryan and I was really interested in looking into these credits for real. You can go direct to developers, right? You know, I think, Ryan, you know, you've, you've got, you guys have projects, I think, at Invictus. And you know that there's other, like direct developers of renewable energy projects that are going to have these credits. And oftentimes, I mean, I think that you should, you know, your listeners should actually be trying to target, maybe somewhere around, you know, 95 or 85 to, like, maybe 89 maybe 90 cents, you know, but more in that range. So I think they get a little better deal than they might commonly see through a typical marketplace environment. Right now. In the future, I think that changes, but for right now, you can probably get a little better deal by going direct to the developer. You might have to do a little bit more due diligence on the projects by doing that, but, but again, if you've got large liabilities, I think that largely that could be worth looking into. You know, for your listeners, they certainly would get a little more bang for their buck, and could afford to spend a little more time on that due diligence. 

Ryan Miller  

So let me, let me make sure I understand that, because that's amazing. So, so there's two sides of this transaction. Shocking, right, yeah, never heard of that before, transaction with two sides. And so any impact investor I know, you use me as an example and full disclosure disclaimer, yes, I do invest in clean energy, so it's something near and dear to my heart, even though I'm not soliciting any investment at all, but just using it as an example but this is literally applies to anybody. So what I think I'm hearing, and you make sure that I'm honest, just for our listeners around the world, is one way, easy way, just go to Crux Climates marketplace. I'm assuming there might be a little bit of a premium to that. I don't know, but the price will be what it is, just like any other market. Or the alternative is, if you're an investor in clean energy, or you know, people who are doing projects like you mentioned you could talk to them. And so I think what I'm hearing is, if you're actually developing green energy, that may be a way to add some profitability by selling off those tax credits. Did I get that right? 

Nate Bradshaw  

Absolutely? Yeah, anyone that's developing renewable energy, absolutely should be dialed on this, 100%, for sure.

Ryan Miller  

Awesome and again, not soliciting but do you guys, would you guys work with those people to help get that ready for investors to do that? 

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. We do that all the time. I mean, we have our own projects, but we do help sell the credits for others that have projects. 

Ryan Miller  

Right. 

Nate Bradshaw  

So yeah, for sure, we're a resource, but, like, Crux is a great resource, there's, you can find people, right? It doesn't have to be us, so.

Ryan Miller  

Yeah, yeah. Okay, great. So, and then you said you should be market price to run 85 to 89 cents per credit to save $1 that part, I want to make sure that you're saying. 

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah. I mean, that's, again, I think that's the little like inside scoop for your, you know, for your listeners, right? I think if you're out there in the open market, if you're like, looking on Google, you know, you're you're on Crux. I mean, again, you're going to be getting different, mixed signals that way. I'm just telling you as somebody that's working in the somebody that's working in the industry, seeing a lot of these bigger deals being done, like, that's really where these things kind of end up penciling well, on both sides and and so if you're not quite there and you want to put a little more due diligence into the into the mix, like, you know, you might be able to kind of get an end target somewhere closer to that.

Ryan Miller  

Awesome. So again, this just, obviously, we're just illustrating an example here. But in this example, the hypothetical investor could save anywhere from 10 to 15%.

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, 10 to 15% discount on your taxes, exactly. I mean, that's like they're going to they're going to Costco. They're buying, you know that, you know, $100 of tax elimination for 85 bucks, or for $89 you know what? I mean, whatever. So, except they're doing $100,000 or, you know, a $200,000 of taxes that they're eliminated, you know, that they're that they're buying for, you know, 85, 85% you know, discount.

Ryan Miller  

Yeah, all right. So, Mark Cuban, I hear you, man, so this is a way to, I'm sure you've got a decent tax bill, we'll say. But that's, that's definitely a great way to help create tax efficiency through the programs that the government literally created for investors. So I absolutely love that. I know there's, like, residential solar, commercial solar. How does that all fold into what we're talking about? 

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so if I was, if I was looking to make investments directly into projects, because, again, we kind of had carved out at the beginning, right? You got these tax benefits that now you can buy, right? You don't need to be tied to the project, but now you can also invest in projects and sell off the tax benefits and make the project's pencil a little bit better. And you know, if I was, if I was interested in looking at investments into, you know, specifically into renewables, looking at these types of of economics, it really depends a little bit on the size investment that maybe you're looking at. But, you know, I think commercial solar is a fantastic place to get started. Really, you can kind of accept, you know, that that market, that segment's able to accept investments of really, pretty much all sizes, you know, north of maybe a million dollars, right? Once you're starting getting into things like hydrogen, clean hydrogen, wind farms, you know, those, the cat, you know, the cap stacks on those, right? You need, you know, $500 million right, to implement something like that. So it can be really, really big. But you know, on the commercial solar side, you know, you can build, you know, one anywhere from one megawatt projects you know, or you know, and invest in one megawatt, you know, five megawatt projects, all the way, you know, to hundreds of megawatts of solar farm projects, right? And there's an abundance of opportunities that I think are available out there in the market right now. You can go direct to, you know, to different developers. You know, you can. There's funds that are investing in these types of things, again, you know, you didn't specifically ask, but, you know, Invictus, right, is a fund that you guys make investments in that. There's others you know that make, that make investments in that. I mean, our, you know, we accept investments, you know, into projects like that as well. So it's like, you know, there's a lot of places that I think you can go to look for these opportunities, and they're and they're becoming more and more abundant all the time, and and I think that for the next 10 years, it's an excellent way to be able to get into into energy, and that the, you know, the returns are going to be pretty fantastic for the next couple decades, so.

Ryan Miller  

Brilliant. Yeah and so we're not soliciting anybody for investment or anything like that, but we're definitely moving the needle forward on some exciting things at invictussovereign.com you can learn a little bit more about that, but again, not a solicitation, just if people, people always ask me, What am I up to? So that's one of those projects.

Nate Bradshaw  

And I know you're up to. That's why I brought it up. But I thought, you know, because there are, there's a lot of great ways to get involved. 

Ryan Miller  

That's right, that's right. So as we wrap things up, is there anything else, any final closing remarks that you'd like to share, ways that people can connect with you? Anything at all? 

Nate Bradshaw  

Yeah, if anyone would like to connect again, you know, happy to to have different conversations, especially for those looking to get into the space, whether it be from the tax credit side or the, you know, or the investment side. And would love to point in the right directions if we're not the right fit for anything like that, but you know. So you go to our website, B10 Energy. So the letter B is in boy, 1, 0, b10energy.com. My email is Nate N, A, T, E, at, b10energy.com, I'm on LinkedIn as well. You know, you know, you can just look me up. Nate Bradshaw, happy to connect with you on there. And, and, anyway, yeah, those, I think those would be some excellent ways, if anyone has just any interest at all in talking about the space, getting better ideas that they'd like, maybe some connections, introductions, other private equity family office in the space, you know, if it's a relevant connection, and, and it would be meaningful to both sides, like those are type, the types of things I'd love to facilitate. Or if anyone's interested in the funds that I think are doing a great job, again, you know, I know you guys aren't looking for that solicitation right now, but, but Ryan, you know, you've got some great stuff. There's other funds I'm aware of that are doing some really exciting things in the space. So there's definitely if people are interested, either on the tax credit side, the investment side, or just the energy side in general, and just kind of nerding out on that. Yeah, I'd love to hang out and talk so.

Ryan Miller  

Awesome, man. So just to summarize everything that we talk about, buy the credits in the open market, you mentioned cruxclimate.com, or work with you guys directly. The other thing is, invest in commercial solar, I know, Texas, Oklahoma, these decentralized places tend to be a little bit better. So look for those solid places and then finally, just look for people who are investing in renewables and see if you can work something out. You do these things, and you too will be well on your way in your pursuit of Making Billions.

Ryan Miller  

Wow, what a show, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Now, if you haven't done so already, be sure to leave a comment and review on new ideas and guests you want me to bring on for future episodes. Plus, why don't you head over to YouTube and see extra takes while you get to know our guests even better, and make sure to come back for our next episode, where we dive even deeper into the people, the process and the perspectives of both investors and founders. Until then, my friends stay hungry, focus on your goals and keep grinding towards your dream of Making Billions.